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Rhea: Deeply personal, impersonal behavior is how I would describe dating apps. Is that you are hoping to find the one thing that's most important, either love or joy or sex or whatever it is. Like it's something you're hoping for a connection with someone but to get that connection, you are often treating people like they aren't human.

Liz: Yeah.

Rhea: Things like ghosting. Things like showing your friends and all those kinds of things that you would do to people you don't feel are real humans. I just decided I wasn't going to do. I just feel that's the least I could do is put some integrity into dating.

Liz: I think integrity is a really important word because I think that the nature of these apps, the sort of the swiping or the, I don't know, whatever these other . . .

Rhea: It's just basically all kind of swiping.

Liz: Okay. So however you're swiping, it's still important to maintain a level of integrity with it. And as you said, the sort of dispensable nature of the app or the people that appear on it sort of take that away. Right. It's difficult to find that. So I do get that because the level of accessibility has changed. The boundaries have changed. It was a lot easier to maintain certain boundaries for my generation. If I don't want you to find me, you don't get to know where I live. You don't get to know my phone number. There are just so many ways. You don't even have to . . . you won't even know my picture, my image, other than if I met you in person, that's it. But now it is so different. I can't imagine knowing so much about a person before I get to know them or get a feel for them that these are just sort of facts. These are just sort of a person's basic resume. It's not really who they are.

Rhea: At all. And it's funny because actually when I look back at the guys that I have liked or have been in my life in one way or another, I mean I have a loose type but not really, because I've always tended to go for how someone makes me feel, but at the same time how the hell else are you going to meet someone apart from doing this really nowadays?

Liz: The pool is so much larger. People that you wouldn't normally encounter or come across in your daily life, they're right there at your fingertips and there's beauty to that.

Rhea: Yeah.

Liz: The flip side is that you're sort of at too large a buffet and it's just way too much food for you to consume. How do you really know what you are in the mood for, or what you'll respond well to when everything is being served up at the same time?

Rhea: I'm down for the tasting menu, and then if I really like something that's kind of where I'm going to hang out.

Liz: It makes sense. I think a lot of people do need a sampling. The issue for many, it's easy to sort of lose yourself in the practice of swiping, first meeting and stuff like that, and not really moving on.

Rhea: No, totally agree with you. Matching - pretty fairly easy. Going on your first date - again, pretty fairly easy and then it gets harder and harder as the days go on. The minute you start going down a road with just one person, then you start thinking, but there are thousands I still haven't met. So that's, yeah.

Liz: And it's easy to lose yourself and hide behind all of those options. Well maybe this person isn't right because there's somebody else. It's that grass is greener, which is a very human tendency because we're constantly being sold that something is better or someone would be better if . . . yeah.

Rhea: Yeah, and actually I would go further than that because it's like, oh, things aren't quite perfect here. I'm just going to move on to the next person. So no one ever has to actually make an effort with anyone really. Allowing things to fizzle out is so natural because unless you have fallen for someone, no one's really making the efforts. If you do try, if I admit I am vulnerable, if I admit I have feelings, if I make myself the human that this app has dehumanized, then it's shame and it's much better to say nothing and do nothing and allow the opportunity to fizzle than actually appreciate that you found a connection in a sea of technology.

Liz: It's always been that way. People not communicating is a time old issue. Yeah. Again, it's just one of those things that we're more aware of because it's in our face all the time. It was no different. I mean, if you think about our parents or their parents or even my peers, the ones who are getting divorced, the ones who are in loveless, sexless marriages, there is no communicating going on—obviously. If you're not connecting, you are not communicating.

Rhea: So in order to communicate, you have to connect.

Liz: With your partner, yeah.

Rhea: Okay, fine. Of course. How else are you going to connect? Yeah, that's pretty fucking obvious.

Liz: Before apps and even now, there are other vehicles for meeting people. It's just your selection is smaller, your pool is smaller and I don't know if I think that's necessarily a bad thing, because it doesn't mean that you will never meet that person. I think there's this fear that I see in a lot of people where, but if I'm not trying, if I'm not making this act of effort several times a day checking this app, then I am never going to go out on a date. I'm never going to meet somebody. I'm going to be single and lonely for a decade or through my 30s or my 20s, whatever. The reality is that it's not the case. It's more that if you slow your roll and you chill and you just . . ., there are other avenues for finding that person or for them to find you.

Rhea: You know, it's really weird because up until my late teenage years, I'm not sure I went on that many dates. In fact, like going on dates was something you almost did when you were already in the relationship.

Liz:  So you went from hanging out to dating?

Rhea: Kind of. Dating was much more of an adjective. We're dating.

Liz:  Ah, okay.

Rhea: You know what I mean? Now through all these apps, it's definitely a verb because I'm physically going on dates.

Liz: I think that dating is one big disaster because I think the word itself sort of twists our thoughts about what we're really doing. As you said, it's become this verb, yeah. And it's become this concept or this idea of the search. We're searching, we're seeking and we all have different intentions with what we're looking for. For some, it's 'we're looking for sex'. For some, ‘we're looking for companionship’.

Rhea: And some people are just looking just to know that there are other people out there. Even though on the app there is a little space “I'm looking for . . .” No one's writing the honest answer.

Liz: Looking for 'somebody to validate me' because I just got out of a relationship of seven years and I feel lonely and I don't know if I'll ever find somebody ever again, or I'm really looking to get laid. I didn't know either. When I moved to New York, I didn't know. I think for me, again, I think it was validation. I'd gotten out of this weird relationship and I thought, Oh, here I am starting over and I'm going to try this adult life. And it wasn't working because it wasn't who I was. There was no integrity in my approach because I was seeking something and expecting these guys to give it to me, and that's not necessarily fair to them and we weren't matching up and that's what was kind of creating the whole mess for me. And then when I was very clear, okay, I think I'd like to meet somebody to share some great times with. Once I put that energy out there, once I put that idea out there and I was really clear and I could embody that intention and I was discerning enough to go out and meet somebody and perhaps he would not necessarily be my physical type, yet we ended up getting along so well and he fit me in every single way possible because I let go of what I thought dating was.

Rhea: What do you mean you let go of what you thought dating was?

Liz: I had this idea—you meet somebody, they take you to dinner or you go for a drink, but those are just actions. As you said, those are just sort of verbs. None of that has to do with really connecting.

Rhea: So basically what you're saying is we shouldn't be using the word dating. We should be using the word connecting.

Liz: And meeting. Meeting and connecting.

Rhea: Because you could do all the right things and go for dinner and drinks and all the rest, but you might not connect with that person, but you could break all the rules as it were and connect beautifully. Allowing yourself to be constricted by the rules is allowing yourself to not have the chance to really connect.

Liz: Yes, because I think that putting yourself out there shows a lot more self-respect than this sort of pseudo, I'm protecting myself by not communicating with them first or not sending the text that says I'd like to see you again, or will I?

Rhea: Yeah.

Liz: It's understandable that there's the fear.

Rhea: But can I ask a question? Like the thing that's always stopped me from doing it is the idea that by declaring I want to see you again, you're going to become less attracted to me.

Liz: Sure. That's certainly a possibility. I'm not going to say that somebody may not feel that way, and if they do then they have issues.

Rhea: Okay.

Liz: Because then it just shows their issue of, well I don't like somebody really desires me.

Rhea: Oh, that's quite interesting.

Liz: But I think desire can be very potent. If I know somebody desires me, it makes me much more interested.

Rhea: Yeah. Actually you know what? That is very true.

Liz: When I sort of said that it would, let's reframe or let's reword dating. To me it's connecting, and meeting and connecting. So you meet the person, you have dinner, you have a drink, you have coffee. That's your meeting. This is the like, ‘Oh Hey, I will see you a second time’.

Rhea: Okay.

Liz: Now say you've seen each other a couple of times. You've had a few meets, yeah, and you're just kind of finding more and more that it's kind of working and then you go into the infatuation bit. So infatuation is really like the glow.

Rhea: Okay.

Liz: When I'm in your presence, I feel great and I feel attracted to you and I feel attractive to you. That's the yummy bit. It's super yummy because you're really experiencing yourself mirrored in somebody else. Okay. That's sort of how you could really find yourself attractive and sexy and beautiful is mirrored in that other person.

Rhea: Because it's a mirror. So how I'm feeling about you, you're feeling about me so I know how you're feeling about me because I'm feeling it about you.

Liz: Yes.

Rhea: Okay.

Liz: Yes. And after that is when you move into this sort of, I like you because I see you. This is what we call the 'I/Thou'.

Rhea: Okay.

Liz: Okay. It's not just me and you. It's the 'I/Thou'. When I am with you, I see not just myself, but I can see you fully. Even if the glow has gone a little bit, there's still something a bit more solid there.

Rhea: So it's kind of like the initial attraction is slightly wearing off and I see your good and your shit, and I still choose you.

Liz: Yes. You may not see all their shit though, and it's when you move from that sort of deep liking and appreciation to love, right? So these are all sort of building blocks for that foundation, for that third bit of connection, which is the Oneness. Two people recognizing that they are one, but that they are individuals. It means that in full deep partnership.

Rhea: Okay. Which is what we're trying to get to.

Liz: Yes. Well some are. Some just want to stay with their apps and swipe forever, but if you want partnership and if you want lifetime partnership on equal footing, then you will always remain two individuals but you recognize that your souls connect. That's the deep soul connection.

Rhea: So it's just two individuals choosing each other.

Liz: Two individuals choosing each other and creating purpose from it.

Rhea: The stages for that start with meeting, connecting, infatuation, liking, loving.

Liz: Yes.

Rhea: That's the timeline?

Liz: Yes.

Rhea: And the problem with dating?

Liz: It's too old a concept. There's too much history. There's too much old shit connected to dating, which was related to courtship. It was related to I need to find a spouse. I need somebody to create a home with. It's a patriarchal value, if you will.

Rhea: Basically what you're saying is even though we're doing something new with dating, i.e. using the apps, actually we're trying to live out new paradigms in old ones.

Liz: Yes.

Rhea: Our reasons for partnership aren't as financial, let's say or as economical . . .

Liz: Or social.

Rhea: Or social as they were before. So people are actually choosing partnership because they actually like the other person or love the other person. So we're trying to fit in this new way of interacting with the opposite sex within the old structures of interacting with the opposite sex. And that disconnect between is just making a lot of people really unhappy. It's not a big deal if I text someone and say, do you want to go for coffee, let's say?

Liz: I would think so. Yeah.

Rhea: But all of a sudden, put it in the form of “I like you” or “We're dating” or “You could be a potential mate”, I can't do that anymore.

Liz: Or by sending that, you're assuming that I want to marry you or that I want something from you.

Rhea: Yeah.

Liz: More than just the hour that I'm asking for to get to know you.

Rhea: Exactly. Yes. We're trying to fit everyone's equal, everything's good. We're all figuring this out together, etcetera.

Liz: It doesn't matter your gender, your race. It's all the same.

Rhea: Yeah. But into man courts woman. Man bags woman. Man marries woman. Woman stays at home and cleans the house.

Liz: And is under his protection.

Rhea: Yeah.

Liz: Right. So it's just a little bit dysfunctional, but it is a case . . .

Liz: Yes, and it's always been dysfunctional and we know that. We see it in so many relationships.

Rhea: Well, no one did. I just figured out what it was like three minutes ago. But now that we've figured this out, well, what do I do about it now? Because it's all well and good me marching to the beat of my own drum again. Let's meet for coffee or let's do this or let's do that, but I'm still stuck in this old paradigm.

Liz: Well, if you are then, it's by choice because in some ways you are because you want to do things a certain way. You want to go and have fun and you're going to use these apps to do so, and so you're sort of opening yourself up to a group of men who are going to be approaching things from that sort of old way. Or who knows? And again, it's also because of your intention versus their intention. What are they really looking for versus what you're looking for? We're at a point where we are trying to achieve a level of spiritual maturity. We're screaming for deeper connection. We're screaming for greater relationships than we have and previous generations have had, right? We're deconstructing all the structures and strictures around relationship and connection and love. 

And one of the things that is most difficult for so many people is where does sex fall into that? And part of that is because sex is such an expression of who we are. Yet it has not often or very much been in our own control. It means also understanding our choices over who we have sex with, how we have sex, and what is sex with another person. What is that telling them and what is that telling ourselves and how are we experiencing it? I don't want to sound like the abstinence coach. I'm all for sex. Yes. If anybody reads my books, you'll see how much I like sex. Casual sex is a bit detrimental. Oh, it's actually, what am I saying? A bit. It's a lot. It's an unfortunate symptom I think of inability for people to communicate. So they try to use sex to communicate some need, but they're so not clear on what they're really needing because we have, we as a society and in the world, sex is so dysfunctional because we've wrapped up too many of our issues. It's an energy exchange and so whether you intend or not, you are definitely picking up on somebody else's energy.

Rhea: What would you term casual sex?

Liz: Meeting somebody just for sex.

Rhea: But if let's say you liked someone or . . .

Liz: There's certainly room for that when you know the person well enough to say, well, this is somebody that you know whose energy is compatible enough with mine that I know we're going to have a great time.

Rhea: Where's the place for that then in this?

Liz: For sex with somebody that you think you might want to be with?

Rhea: Well, you're just not sure but you want it, but you're attracted to them.

Liz: Yes. So I've asked this question to guidance, right? As we kind of sometimes put it to the universe. Again, we make our own rules. So it's not a hard and fast one and something bad is going to happen to you if you don't do it. But the sort of spiritual advice that I have gotten about it is three months.

Rhea: Okay.

Liz: Because when you're in the infatuation mode, you're there for a while, at least six months, and that's why so often you will see relationships fizzle out after six months, and it's fun to have sex in that infatuation stage and three months you're still in it. But when we develop a stronger and closer relationship with ourselves, we will become much more sensitive to the vibrations of others. Because we've been so focused on human connection, we've limited what sex can mean and what sex does for us.

Rhea: Okay.

Liz: And again, because there are so many ways in which society and religion and government has used sex to control our existence—you have sex to procreate only, you can only have sex at this age or you know, there's all these different rules around it —it has become a very worked concept and a very damaged concept. But the reality is that sex is not. Sex is divine. Sex is profound. Sex elevates. There's nothing not positive about sex. It's really how we see it and view it that demeans it so often. And so the reason why there is a certain idea over giving sex time, having that kind of connection with the person you're doing it with can make sex that sort of transcendent experience that so many have not yet had, and most people may not ever have.

Rhea: Every situation is different, but the one thing we are seeing, which is different from everyone else's, you know, whoever you are, this wondering whether or not I should text or not, there is a part of you that deep down knows what the right answer is.

Liz: Yes. What's the one that you can live with and if there's fear that's holding you back, that you need to figure out before you continue on.

Rhea: And when you say operating from fear . . .

Liz: Well, the insecurity. Oh, I can't send that text because he's going to think . . .because I think that what holds us back in truly connecting to people is fear. You will say no and then that reinforces the idea that I am unlovable and then I will have to run back to my corner and cower and I'll never find anybody again, and you're just affirming my feelings, my lack of trust, that this won’t work out.

Rhea: And had I not done that, maybe you would still be interested enough in me that I could pretend you were really interested in me.

Liz: We could make this a story.

Rhea: So going for it at least gets you to the ending because I think there's a difference here between, we're not telling people, just go out and message everyone you fancy and tell them how much you like them. We're saying . . .

Liz: Spam them.

Rhea: We're saying don't be afraid of connection. Embrace connection, but in order to connect with someone else, you have to be connected to yourself first.

Liz: Absolutely.

Rhea: And in order to be connected to yourself first, you have to be acting in a way that is you.

Liz: But remember, you get what you give, and in the previous episode we talked about unrequited love and people not really meeting on that level. Yeah. And for me, it's not about the chasing. Nobody's chasing anybody. That's what the whole meeting bit is, is can we get to the same level here? And if I know that you are interested in me the same way I'm interested, then I can text you and not fear that you're just going to ghost me.

Rhea: So if I want you to make me feel secure, I need to make you feel secure too.

Liz: Gotta be willing to be vulnerable, if you want somebody to be vulnerable with you. When you have too many boundaries with a person and you have too many sort of . . . you've kind of got that bit of barbed wire like you can only come so far, the interaction itself starts to lose integrity because it has to sort of, the energy has to navigate around those walls, right. Karma's my bitch is because I know this lesson already. I'm not going to have to relearn it so I'm developing a new pattern. I'm striking out and I'm doing something entirely different.

Rhea: And in this case with dating, it's being open to connection.

Liz: Being open to connection, being open to taking risks, being fearless with it and being vulnerable.

Rhea: And you can only do that if you respect yourself enough because then you can go as far as you want because you can always trust yourself that a point where it stops working for you, you'll be able to turn around and walk the other way.

Liz: Precisely. And it gets a lot harder if you are sleeping with that person because it blinds us.

Rhea: And the wisdom to tell the difference is another word for discernment.